I think the worst part about this is that I wasn't even surprised throughout the entire story. Anyone who has been a freelancer has dealt with the random, uncalled for threats from clients to give you a bad review or try to suspend your account. It's the reason I gave up on working on platforms like Upwork and Freelancer almost immediately.
Building a personal network is way easier to find contract work and you'll make more money in the end while creating real relationships that will help you foster your career.
I'm sorry this happened to you, and I'm super glad you revealed this persons name publicly. Good form.
>Anyone who has been a freelancer has dealt with the random, uncalled for threats from clients to give you a bad review or try to suspend your account.
It's amazing, isn't it? These are people who require outside expertise (they're hiring you after all) and yet do everything they can to make you feel small and worthless. It's utterly backwards.
I wonder how many of these abusive people are "idea" guys?
Regardless, utterly embarrassing on the part of Upwork. Glad they're being called out. I hope the internet has its way with them.
This has more to do with low barrier to entry in any online platform. For any job there could be zillions of bids, going down spiral. All claiming they can do the job. It creates a sort of situation where people don't realise that their task is to find needle in a haystack
As someone who has worked on oDesk and made good money. You also need to do client filtering.
>do everything they can to make you feel small and worthless. It's utterly backwards.
Backwards? That's a bizarre word to use to describe behavior that is NEVER appropriate.
Are you implying that the freelancers should be making the employers feel small and worthless?
> I wonder how many of these abusive people are "idea" guys?
Honestly, I have no idea what you mean by "idea guys" and the implied correlation to "abusive people"?
From reading your comment, it sounds like you missed the point completely. This is not a freelancer vs. employer or developer vs. idea guy situation, this is a simple case of narcissist vs. victim.
The situation can be reversed and be just as abusive and horrible.
An outside expert doing everything they can to make an "idea guy" feel small and worthless!
The point is not whether the employer has the right to push around the freelancer, or the respect you think an employer should have when needing outside expertise.
The point is everyone is a human being that deserves to be treated with respect. It is too easy to not consider the other person when working through a platform like Upwork or on the internet at large...This is a cautionary tale about the importance of remembering that there is a human being on the other side of the screen!
Shouldn't respect be a two way street? His comment implies it should be a one way, just the opposite way of this evil Kevin guy.
Edit: Just to be clear, I am drawing my assumption from the second part of his post that tries to correlate "idea guys" to "abusive people", almost as if he equates idea guys that try to hire developers as somehow "less than" him.
>almost as if he equates idea guys that try to hire developers as somehow "less than" him.
I used "idea guys" in quotes because I'm referencing a specific type of person who you may not be familiar with, but I'm sure many other people here are, especially in the freelancing world. If you read the post, you can spot the cliche.
Having an idea, no matter how good it is (and believe me when I say I'm not one of those "ideas are worthless" guys) only gets you so far. At some point you need talented, skilled people to help execute on it. And it's far easier for the execution guys to crib an idea than it is for the idea guy to copy the execution skills.
Basically, the "idea guys" like to place themselves at the top of the pyramid, and think everyone else owes them something.
Thanks for clarifying. I mistakenly assumed you were referring to "any non technical person with an idea (who can't build it himself),"
...as opposed to jerks who overvalue their contribution, thinking everyone else owes them something for just coming up with the idea.
In general, I think the bias flows both ways. Some developers think ideas are worthless and that idea guys/business and marketing folks contribution is somehow worth significantly less than a developers contribution. Other "idea guys" think their idea gives them the keys to the kingdom.
You really need both to succeed.
In reality, there are lots of ways for both sides to make significant contributions to bringing ideas to life, outside of writing the actual code or ideation.
It takes a village...
I think we were both coming from opposite perspectives, but share similar views. I was "lashing out" against the guys who undervalue business guy contributions, and you were against the guys who undervalue the developers contribution...
I just heard on a podcast that, "Every Mark Needs their Sheryl"
You're doing the equivalent of yelling "white lives matter too" at a guy saying "black lives matter".
Almost all freelancers respect their clients, and bend over backwards to please them, even if they don't get the same respect back. A client that understands and respects their freelancers is rare.
I wasn't surprised when I found out it was a law firm either. I've had the good fortune to work with some of the good ones, but legal marketing in general requires a very sensitive a-hole detector.
Bad clients are bad clients, but speaking from experience, it can be taken to an entirely new level when the bad client in question happens to be a law firm. Some of the less savory high volume practices can be especially bad, and they all go out of their way to project an air of competence and professionalism that disappears pretty damned quickly. Personally, I think part of the problem with those guys is a serious sense of arrogance and entitlement, as if their being a law firm will force you to go away despite not being paid. And if you don't, well, they can always play games to delay and string you along. After all, you're paying for representation directly. They can at least swallow the opportunity cost of dealing with you somewhat easier.
Nowadays, if I'm contacted by a law firm for work, I look into their reputation very carefully. In my experience, corporate law firms--regardless of size--aren't a big deal compared to some of the high volume personal injury/immigration/divorce/etc. firms. And yes, I realize I'm doing a lot of generalizing here.
If it's a law firm, then to me it is surprising that they would actively interfere with this guy's other professional relationships. If this really is as it appears to be, the potential damages both from interference with existing relationships and from defamation surely put this in "worth talking to a lawyer" territory in most places.
In my country, if they'd interfered with existing business relationships causing expected revenues to be lost, they'd made potentially libellous statements that caused a major source of expected future revenues to permanently block access, there was ample written evidence that they did these things deliberately and that actual losses were and would continue to result, and there was ample evidence that the victim had previously been well-regarded and able to command a certain rate for their services, I wouldn't want to be their position, law firm or not. Situations like this are exactly why defamation cases can result in such huge damages being awarded.
Well, maybe I'm just jaded by a recent experience with a former business partner who was an attorney himself. They guy had provably stolen over $100K from the company and our attorney basically charged us $20K to let him go. It was a valuable lesson to me to never go into business with an attorney again.
Not all attorneys are crooks. My daughter is attorney for business (Droit commercial, France) and she is definitely not a crook. In fact they spend a significant amount of work time trying to get the due money from clients. Please don't generalize.
The real problem is that there is no efficient system to weed out the crooks. There are no efficient pressure against them. Psychopats are king.
I know they are not all crooks. The problem is that you assume that somebody is not when you enter a partnership with them. If that partnership has to go to court you are at a significant disadvantage if your partner can represent himself against you, aside from the fact that he probably knows the law better than you do.
While I knew a few who successfully worked full time at large legal firms, I once worked full time for a smaller firm (about 60 staff). Never again. I left after 6 months and vowed to never work for a law firm again. Life is too short and there is plenty of opportunity out there for talented people.
The ironic thing is that my experience was nearly 20 years ago. While so much has changed in the last 20 years (in Internet time, that's like 400 years, and I have more RAM in my phone than the Unix server supporting 40 users on serial terminals), some things haven't, especially where humans and the legal profession are concerned.
I don't intend to paint all attorneys with the same brush--I now have good relationships with several attorneys that I use for businesses; I still would seriously question any job working for a legal firm.
> Anyone who has been a freelancer has dealt with the random, uncalled for threats from clients to give you a bad review or try to suspend your account.
This. Totally. Several times, at 3/3 platforms where I've been working (for over two years now). Surprisingly (not), they (the clients) can do this and get away with it any time, but I (the freelancer) can't.
You know... Who has the money? Who has Upwork to please? The client.
So what is your role in Upwork?
Let me tell you what I have realised...
Do you pay to use Upwork? Not directly (you're not the one fueling the whole thing).
Are you paid to use Upwork? No, because the money you get is a counterpart for the work you perform.
So... What is the your role in Upwork? Well, you're the product being sold.
In any case you will always lose. You are not putting money into Upwork, but the client is. And the customer is always right.
Plus, they have recently raised their cut, like a lot.
Exactly. I realised how true this is very recently. A AirBnb host decided to kick me out early without refunding anything and i escalated it. The swiftness that their customer service showed me in getting a refund without regards to the "feelings" of the host shows how i am more important to AirBnb.
This is because the Host is the product, while i am their Customer. and Apparently, the Customer is always right.
It depends on what sort of freelancer you are. What is your standing with it. If you are a platinum or higher contractor with $500K+ of money earned and 10K hours in your history, you can get away with a lot of things, and support is very nice to you. If some casual client tries to threaten you, you just send the screenshot to them and client simply gets banned (and there is a provision for that in their ToS, called blackmail by a customer).
Really, Upwork will block you only if you have provably scammed your client, or engaged in criminal activity like hacking - they obviously don't want to get into legal fights so they have zero tolerance policy against that, or if they have good reasons to suspect that you drive your clients off the platform, which is also explainable (and after recent reduction of commissions, that is also very stupid to do).
Re: reduction of commissions: obviously you don't try to circumvent Upwork with a new client, because you don't trust him yet and need payment protection which Upwork provides. When you know the client though, you are already past the $10K point earnings with him and your commission lowers to 5%. You don't want to get into trouble and risk losing your primary sales channel over 5%. 'Increasing their cut, like a lot' is a NONSENSE. 20% applies to first $500 only, so it is max $50 increase of commission per client. Is that such a significant figure? That also drew out a lot of spammers. If my sales funnel got widened by 10% (and it definitely did), i'd happily shell out $50 for that. It is optimal if client acquisition cost is over $500 - and in programming, if you can scalably attract clients for $500 a pop you are going to get really rich, quickly. I'd happily pay $1000 a pop to get clients like my average client, if you can get me a couple of those per week.
I thought of and actually suggested Upwork to remove any free contacts per month, so project bid is always paid (even if cheap). For the same reason: it will drive off spammers and simplify sales, and improve client image of the platform (being a customer myself a little, it gets frustrating how much spam you get)
Aren't people on this thread being too harsh on Upwork? I agree that there are problems with the way it works, but nothing is ever perfect. I happen to be from a country with a lower cost of living than US/UK and Upwork allows me to do remote freelancing and charge more than I would be able to charge for work in person.
Also, the world is full of clients that won't pay for your work after you deliver it. I don't know exactly how helpful Upwork can be in such cases, but I bet it is better than if I was alone trying to contact a non-paying client 8000km away.
I guess you need to choose your clients carefully, whether you are working remotely or in person, always watch out for red flags and get out of the deal as soon as you see them.
Except he never chose this client. He exchanged a few emails with a potential client, saw a red flag, and then decided not to work with him.
He did exactly what you suggest, and now cannot accept any work through Upwork, has lost all existing work, and will not be paid for already completed work. All from declining one client.
Actually, while I generally agree with everything i'm reading - this one part I don't quite agree with. (He exchanged a few emails with a potential client, saw a red flag, and then decided not to work with him)
The moment he accepted the username/password he engaged in a transaction - upwork rules or not.
He "should" have had the price and work agreed before accepting anything, and if they sent it unsolicited his immediate reply should have been "you need agree before I touch this".
Not
The client eventually gave me login details, alas, still no job.
Then
After 3 weeks of sporadic talks, the client trying to get me to work without actually giving me the job.
->The client was incredibly unprofessional (but not unprofessional enough to be named and shamed I see), but if you are taking login details without a job assignment you are asking for trouble.
While I agree with you in spirit, there are two points to consider
1) it may have been unsolicited (you mentioned this), and
2) humans tend to be very "fuzzy". Maybe he should have towed the line, and now he's learned his lesson about why you always cover yourself.
But 99/100 times the human being on the other side just wants to get you the information you need and is just too trusting. We've all had those clients, and it's up to us to be trustworthy and not be the one who teaches that client what can happen if you don't protect yourself [1]
[1] Obviously what I mean by this is that you shouldn't be fucking over your client, educating them is another matter.
Its probably worth pointing out, that in either 1 or 2, the correct/professional way to do it (if the client wants a fixed price but providing one requires additional work) is do a go/no go first.
in this case, a hundred or so $ to work up a spec, deliver that to the client along with an estimate of the time that should be involved. They can either give it to you, someone else, or abandon it.
>I happen to be from a country with a lower cost of living than US/UK and Upwork allows me to do remote freelancing and charge more than I would be able to charge for work in person.
This is part of the problem for freelancers who do live in the US/UK. They're expected to work for less than they could charge in person because they're competing internationally with people who live in areas with much lower cost of living..
In addition, as the article mentions, a big problem is the amount of dishonesty. The fact that someone could have their livelihood shut down overnight by one abusive client is ridiculous.
> In addition, as the article mentions, a big problem is the amount of dishonesty. The fact that someone could have their livelihood shut down overnight by one abusive client is ridiculous.
Once you are out there and have your website/blog, anyone can hassle you really, but I agree that Upwork may make it easier.
As for the other point, aren't we in a global economy? When you bring the freelance business to an online marketplace you are competing with the world, there's no way around it. I mean, I buy things from China on ebay because it's cheaper than buying them in a store. I also buy clothes from Zara, H&M, Primark, etc. that are made in Bangladesh by a family earning $1 a day. Remote contracting of people in cheaper countries is inevitable.
You're selling the wrong product if you're just looking to sell on the bottom dollar.
I meet clients in-person and focus on quality and consistency. Yeah sure you can save a few thousand by having someone do it on a site like this, but you'll lose many more times that much the first time a deploy gets botched, the site goes down, they can't help you get what you need as opposed to what you asked for, etc.
I stopped trying to beat on price long ago, wasn't worth it, just meant I had to put out lower quality code and slap stuff together sloppily to compete and I didn't like doing that.
> ... always watch out for red flags and get out of the deal as soon as you see them.
...and keep your fingers crossed that the client doesn't leave a negative review for you - or that s/he doesn't do worse, as it happened in the case of the OP.
What's the costs of living? Or what country are you from?
The NY/SV are expensive, as-in the most expensive places in the world. People there can only be paid the money they are paid because they are in a crazy place. It's understandable that remote work worldwide doesn't match up with that.
Anywhere else is cheaper, the range goes from half to 10x cheaper. So, what country are you from? what's your rate?
The point being. If upwork can only pay enough for the bottom 20% income bracket in the world. It is indeed terribly inappropriate for most of HN readers.
I am pretty sure that the client sharing salesforce login information was against salesforce agreements. That should be made clear to upwork and hopefully they investigate. Whether developer works with upwork anymore or not IMO it is very important to set the record straight even if this takes a while.
On the blog post, my 2c (not as a criticism, but as an opinion with 20/20 hindsight).
1. Shadi should have moved away from the client cleanly and quicker. When he heard that they are not going to pay at his rate / "not even our CEO makes that" and as he already had strong indication that it is not working out it would be better to apologize and move on (use "sorry, my rate is fixed" as a perfectly good excuse).
2. Give more time to upwork to investigate. They obviously value clients more than developers, so first reaction is to go with the client in a dispute. Escalating to the people who do not have to follow a standard script can take weeks. By posting "upwork sucks" too early he burned the bridges and made any real investigation highly unlikely.
I suspect that upwork received threats of legal action if they didn't terminate the account. They took the easiest path. Well the path they assumed, was easiest.
Anyway, this shows poor crisis and damage control management.
Building a personal network is way easier to find contract work and you'll make more money in the end while creating real relationships that will help you foster your career.
I'm sorry this happened to you, and I'm super glad you revealed this persons name publicly. Good form.