My name is James, I work for Community Phone, a nationwide cell phone company.
Show of hands: if we opened up this feature for you to control this filter for yourself or your loved ones, holding all else constant (price and coverage), would that be sufficient to cause a switch to try out an alternate provider?
I'm not thrilled putting Google in charge of my mobile data, but I still trust Google to safeguard my privacy more than any of the major telcos, and for someone who uses small amounts of data, they're very competitively priced and have really good, simple billing.
But particularly with the Librem Phone coming up, I've been trying to find other phone providers I won't hate that can give me more flexibility in devices and that at least somewhat shares my values. Community Phone looks really interesting. I'm frankly a little bit weirded out that the prices are that low, I'm going over the site trying to figure out what the tradeoffs are.
Rolling out a feature like this would definitely make me more interested in switching. Even if I didn't think it was valuable for me personally, it would make me feel like the company was in close contact with its users and working with them, rather than just blindly selling to them.
From a pure feature point of view, I would still want unknown people to be able to leave me messages. I get legitimate calls from unknown numbers -- but my policy is that if I don't know you and the call isn't important enough to leave a message, you're either spam or I don't care. If it is important enough to leave a message, I screen that and then add the number to my contact list if it's legit.
Hey danShumway, thanks for your note here. I am going to share it with my colleagues if that's okay with you. You express a very important culture and way of working.
The real answer is that our prices are low because most of our users to date use less than 1gb per line (nearly all senior citizens on our 15 or 25 plans)... they were overpaying the most while using the least (but even for them we cannot be too low otherwise even the stingiest would think our pricing is too low to be credible... and I am laughed out of /r/nocontract for having prices that are way too high). And since building that volume, we've been able to keep our prices as they are, due to better negotiations with carriers.
That said, most of our customers to date join us just because they like getting a human from Boston or Milwaukee when they answer the phone who can help them quickly, listens intently to what you say, and doesn't require a "tech-ese"
For how long were you with your previous carrier before joining Google Fi and when did you make the switch?
I don't want to derail the overall conversation too much.
I was with Verizon from my first phone until I first got a smartphone. I switched over to Fi specifically because I didn't want to deal with Verizon's billing, and because I didn't like the company in general.
The low-data approach is really attractive to me -- atm I use less than 500mb a month (sometimes as low as 200-300mb). At that level of usage your prices are very competitive with Fi. My concerns are that I'm starting to migrate away from native services where possible because of the security implications -- more of my texting is happening over Signal rather than SMS, and with the Libre phone theoretically some voice is going to start getting routed over Matrix.
I have no idea what that's going to do to my data usage, I honestly just have to experiment and find out.
Additionally, I'm starting to get more serious about using a VPN everywhere, even on mobile data, since I assume that behind Google, whatever network I'm on is absolutely selling any data that hits their towers. That may drive my data usage up, or it might drive it down because I might feel more comfortable connecting to random wifi networks if I know 100% all of my traffic is going through that VPN.
I'm in an urban area, so this is unrelated to me, but the fact that you're selling dumb phones on your plan is also pretty cool, and I can think of people who would be interested in that if Sprint's rural coverage was better.
We'd love to experiment with you on Librem. If you go through crazy spikes of data usage, we could comp them if you helped us characterize and understand the behavior-- and especially the value you hope you procure by way of privacy.
Do you operate your own VPN? Or if not, how do you truly evaluate whether you are solving your problem? What questions would you ask post-Librem and post-VPN adoption whose answers would tell you how close you are to solving your problem?
I consider my IP address to be sensitive information, so I wouldn't host a VPN on my home network, and there are advantages in numbers to using a popular service, since you can blend in at least a tiny bit.
I use a 3rd-party VPN (PIA). This is obviously not perfect privacy, since they could be lying about what data they store. That being said, I'm not trying to hide from a government, I'm trying to hide from advertisers, stalkers, and criminals. So even if I can't personally validate that PIA isn't storing any of my data, having my data accessible to a warrant is still better than having it accessible to hundreds of different sites and companies that I 100% already know I don't trust.
I validate actual implementation security by regularly checking what information shows up in requests when I visit sites. There are a couple of tools that help with that online.
Being strict about what data goes where is part of the reason why my data usage is low. It turns out that if you block network access for most apps on a phone by default, data usage just goes down a lot. Apps like Uber and Lyft make a lot of requests, because they are constantly tracking you, so blocking their network access if you have them installed is just a strict all-around win. Even apps that should be good about this like Google Music will sometimes just randomly decide to download things.
Obviously the librem phone is still kind of up in the air, but my game plan assuming it's not a complete disaster is to migrate over to that and fill in any gaps of functionality by just programming whatever features I need. I dunno how voice calls will work. The idea of switching to something more secure than the existing phone system is attractive, but I mentioned above, I'm not sure what it would do to data usage -- I just don't have any basis to make an educated guess.
In general I want my phone to be a very specialized device -- not a dumb phone, but a phone that only ever does what I tell it to.
So a successful migration for me would look like a company:
- with good coverage
- without any horrible terms like arbitration agreements or stealth charges
- that does not sell data, and that is supportive of low data-usage
- that is at least not actively unethical :)
on a device that:
- gives me root access
- makes calls, texts, and browses the web in a secure way
- that is highly geared towards offline availability and low data-usage
- and that doesn't run extra software or do things behind my back
Librem is my hope for the second part, I guess if it crashes and burns I'll look into custom Android roms. I haven't made a list of carriers yet, but from what you say, it sounds like Community Phone should be high up on that list?
Similar setup: I use Google Fi with a Google Pixel 3 phone, and I will buy the Purism Librem 5 phone.
I get ~5 calls/day that are legitimate calls with unknown numbers, and ~10 calls/day that are spam robocalls. I use Google screening and it works reasonably well; I would much prefer to have a telco do the screening automatically.
I use ~10-20GB of data per month, mostly for video calls, mostly for business, mostly via Signal, Slack, Zoom.
Feel free to PM me if you would like more. Contact info is in my user link.
Yes, though some of them already had a proclivity when they were young, it's gotten worse.
Sometimes getting them a prepaid phone with limited minutes, like 100/month or 1000/year, manages to fix it because it stops them from answering calls from unrecognized numbers. I guess the logic is they get upset about spending 4 cents a minute.
Telephone spam was not much of a problem before unlimited cell phone calling plans. I would love a system to charge people who aren't on my white list an amount of money I determine to call me. I'd probably put it at 10 cents so as to not hurt legitimate callers but basically kill spammers. Warren Buffet might set his to $10 million.
If the coverage and wifi integration was as good as Google Fi and my girlfriend and I can use our Nexus 5 phones, I would definitely do it right now. I would also pay a decent premium over our $35 a month unlimited call/text, $10 Gig data plan.
The easy international hookup feature of Google fi I could give up, although that is pretty sweet. All over Europe my phone would hook up automagically with the local system about 30min after my plane landed.
- People in my contact list (or whitelist) automatically get through
- Everyoneelse is forwarded to a reallivehuman who screens my calls
(The reason why I would pay is I'd rather just have a well-paid human handle this instead of some kind of AI or heuristic.)
The human could be paired with some data, like what phone network the call came from, and additional data about how likely caller ID is spoofed. If you want to get fancy, you could do some kind of machine learning where you tell the person, "this call is xx% likely to be spam."
To keep things simple, I shouldn't be able to set many preferences. (This allows the human to react the same way every time.) But, things like choosing to allow or block "good" robocalls, like automated calls from the power company, are probably useful.
You could try to make a profit by actually asking to get on the do-not-call list, tracking it, and then aggressively suing violators. When I'm interrupted on my cell phone, I just don't have the time to track this kind of thing.
And, one more thing: If you want to get into AI, see if you can figure out how to keep the spammers on the phone as long as possible. This increases their costs dramatically.
Hi, a friend of mine started a similar thing called the Jolly Roger Telephone company. You should check them out, to fully appreciate the merit of your final point :)
Regarding your proposed feature, how much time, or how many calls/fewer distractions, would you look forward to saving every month if this real live human did their job well?
I have several devices including iPhone XS, a few Android devices, and a hotspot; each with its own number. How many devices do you support per account? Do you have an unlimited account and what sort of bandwidth limits do you have?
I live in Houston, TX. My current carrier is T-mobile. I'm fairly satisfied with cell service where I live, but my parents' home an hour away is garbage. How's your coverage there?
In addition to leaving my devices in do-not-disturb mode, I also specifically disable my voicemail. I am not interested in voicemail messages and have repeatedly asked to have T-mobile permanently disable it for my phones but it keeps turning up anyway. Is Community Phone able to resolve that?
What I would rather have would be if voicemail and other messages could be delivered directly to a personal email address and/or posted to a personal file server. I want to be able to aggregate my phone numbers' correspondence in any standard desktop mail client like Thunderbird.
Right. Most people people just sign up for our $25 plan for unlimited talk and text with 1 fast gigabyte of data, and overage 100mbs for $1 + sales taxes
Hey James. Honestly, it probably wouldn't be enough for me to switch. I've been using the do-not-disturb solution for a few weeks now and I'm mostly satisfied.
However, that proposed feature plus the fact you don't sell user data to advertisers (reading your website) is appealing...
I also am on Fi, the feature would at least get my attention. The biggest problem I would have currently with going to your service is the fact that it is on the Sprint network, currently the last place provider in my area.
Sounds like it would require customers to provide you with all their contacts for creating the filter? If so, no thanks. This feature could be implemented 100% on the device itself, without leaking information.
I use the DND of Android Pixel 2. I got 26 calls yesterday that never rang, the majority of which show as local numbers. About half of those left 4 second voicemails. Out of curiosity I turned it off for about 10 minutes. Got the evergreen "you've won a cruise" call.
hi James, This filter is a filter i would love to have for my phone, there is a wish list that could accompany the desire to filter calls, a ^large^ list perhaps, but i think it would be summed up as another user has stated, I want my phone to serve me, not the other way around. I also believe the smart phone thing has been abused for far too long, to the point I will not operate a smart phone for reasons of security, privacy and the interruption of tasks with alerts popups updates, and feature bloating. baked in apps that depart radicly from the stated function of the app, unnessecary permisions and connectivity.
These reasons and more are why i refuse to use anything other than a dinosaur flipphone, and e-mail.
thanks for the ear James.
Hi meetuu, thanks very much for your thoughtful response. I totally can relate to your desire for that feature and I hope you do not feel ashamed for it. Your phone is a personal device, and it ought to exist to serve your personal preferences so that you may live the best possible life with the thing (toleration or enjoyment)!
I think it can be confusing now, that they have become so impersonally social, that we can be made to feel strange for wanting them to behave in different ways. And I appreciate your desire for simplicity and wanting to get to the essence of your communications.
At what point did you finally decide to leave your smartphone behind and how severe of a lifestyle change have you had to make in order to operate and function as you have come to expect of yourself?
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We currently offer unlimited talking and texting for $15/month + state taxes and FCC fees, or ~$18.
Interesting service - how did it get started? I see that you're all over the site, assuming youre "Strategy Team James"... Are you the founder of this service?
Who backs the network you talk to?
Would you have a data-only-text-only SIM plan? (i.e. could I have a ~$3/month SIM that ONLY allowed Text? or a $5/month plan that ONLY allowed text+SOME data?
I'd like to put sims in some IoT devices - and want to find the cheapest method to allow this.
I have some other ideas I'd like to talk to you guys about if these sorts of things are something you're open to.
Hi Sam, I started a previous company (caffei.net) and during this time of selling network software that improves end user privacy, battery life, network performance, and total data used to the folks building all the apps all the people use for 2 years, I grew disgusted with how little regard they have for all of the many prepaid people in the world... for whom a sloppily set up RPC connection for some trash 30 second video ad will cost them $0.40. This is why we had that lemonde.fr teardown on HN several months back: apps stuff themselves with third parties that hog up the network and thus battery life and aren't penalized for it. So the phone company we started became a way to exact the proper practices we know we can deliver, and we know that folks would benefit from. But then we started finding a lot of people in far worse situations with their big phone company providers, paying more than $300 a month for less than 2 gigabytes of data (using less than 50mb a month) etc etc. So our morals pushed us because we couldn't find anyone else helping them! Yes, Consumer Cellular, and yes GreatCall, are supposed to be good, but in practice for about 5% of users, they are really, really bad. And yeah I'm a founder.
We use AT&T, Sprint, and T-Mobile networks. We also peer with a few hundred regional carriers around the world.
What is your business application and how big of a cost component are these SIM cards and how many of them would you need? Have you checked out hologram.io? They have a card built for this IIRC.
Always open to ideas! I am james@communityphone.org
Absolutely. Our most popular family plans involve two unlimited everything plans for the kids ($45 each for two, or $50 for one) and then a $35 2gb plan for the parents with an additional line of unlimited t&t for $10 sharing that 2gb pool, or $45 + $90 = $135 plus taxes and fcc fees for the 4 lines.
hi again james, the problem with phone abuse became apparent, so long ago that i cant even remember. my wife bought a smartphone for me to use and it took less than a week for me to begin raging. the greatest peeves involved a "certain browser corporation" baking in thier browser, and requireing a sign in to a "G / G+ account" the lack of controll over basic functions, and camera use. It seemed that every time i wanted to snap a pic of a moment never to be seen again, the process was interrupted with suggestions, or a suddenly critical update [turning off OTA updates would be wonderful]. The life style adjustment that was presented to me was 1 device many uses , like camera, GPS, note taking, sharing of information. But it was a false promise as these things came at the price of not being able to actually use thes features in an effective manner. I was unwilling to adjust my life style to accomodate this "mess" so i have a task bag with SLR camera, GPS, FRS/HAM radio, PDA, laptop, and pocket router hotspot. This is my lifestyle, and im called a fossil, a dinosaur, older than dirt etc. if i had a device that was all of these things [basically a smartphone] but allowed me to ^totally^ controll it up to and including selection and design of an operating system and firmware of my own choice i would not balk at paying $900 on hardware that sits in the palm of my hand. Please all you hardware devs out there i hope you are listening as well. Thanx again James it sounds like you have a good price point as well, but im just interested in giving constructive feedback, i hope your company is able to be a suffiently successful competitor, and reset the bar for all others.
Hey Meetuu, I'm happy you've been able to find and fashion yourself a solution to these problems you've experienced. I worry about the people who agree with you, but who might not be smart enough to realize it, and instead choose to acquiesce to the mainstream pull of sterile veneer throwing up lowercase I prepends all over the place.
If I comment back here in a few months, or years, will you receive my notification? I would like to give you updates and receive more of your constructive criticism as we move forward :)
Maybe you are a fossil, how could I know, but we've figured out how to fashion literal fossils into the black goop that's brought the entire world this far... fossils of all kinds must have a lot of potential!
Show of hands: if we opened up this feature for you to control this filter for yourself or your loved ones, holding all else constant (price and coverage), would that be sufficient to cause a switch to try out an alternate provider?