Hacker Newsnew | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submitlogin

This is what a commerce war looks like.

It's not about China being an oppressive state, spying, etc. The former didn't matter all these decades, and the latter goes on forever from all sides and nobody bats an eye.

It's about China catching up to (and surpassing in some cases) US tech, and not being content to be the mere "factory of the US" but sell its own stuff. Like Korea, Taiwan, and Japan each did in their own timelines decades ago (from laughed at copycats and cheap foreign manufactures, to competitive themselves).

Expect to see more of China as the "enemy du jour" going forward.



However Taiwan, Korea, and Japan all did this without pissing everyone off.

China needs to learn to play by the rules


Not really. See my answer with links and info above. Exactly the same things you hear about China (accusations, threats, fears, tariffs, etc) also happened with Japan for example in the 70s to 90s.


Or with the US from Europe with weaving, steel production etc.


Japan caught up and surpassed the US without the corporate espionage or subsequent commerce war.


Maybe you didn't follow the news at the time of the Japan meteoric rise in the 80s/90s (and the even more prevalent accusations of copying etc in 60s/70s).

Here's a speech from the House of Representatives (1989):

https://fas.org/irp/congress/1989_cr/h890712-japan.htm

And here's the blurb of an earlier 1983 book -- do the accusations sound similar?

"This analysis of Japanese business practices covers industries from automobiles to computers and argues that the success of Japanese business is founded upon methods such as industrial espionage, government subsidies leading to unfair pricing, dumping, and exploitation of domestic labor"

Here is a famous example:

https://www.nytimes.com/1982/06/23/business/japanese-executi...

In the 90s, when Japanese started dominating and buying American firms left and right accusations in the press and politicians got even worse -- and the political threats and warnings against Japan were common occurence (similar to Trump's anti-globalization speeches/promises, but at a time when America-first wasn't a taboo of both Republicans and Democrats, and politicians pay more lip service to factory / blue collar jobs). There were also tariffs involved, and the whole thing...

But then again, aside financially, Japan was a neutered ally of the US since WWII (when Japan was put under military supervision), and their dominance was capped -- whereas China is 8x Japan's population, and not subservient politically and diplomatically. It makes sense things can get uglier in this case re: the commerce war.

E.g., one difference was that Japan could be pushed (as did Germany, another neutered since WWII ally at the time), into this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plaza_Accord


> Japan caught up and surpassed the US without the corporate espionage or subsequent commerce war.

No, Japanese corporate espionage against US firms, Japanese transfers of sensitive US-origin technology to regimes the US wanted it kept away from, and a US-Japan trade war are all things that happened and were notable news items during the Japanese run up.

This despite the US and Japan being geopolitical allies at the times involved.


You should brush up on the history of Japanese-US trade relations during the Reagan era if you are seriously convinced that is a remotely faithful retelling of history.


Enlighten us?


The US felt extremely threatened by Japanese manufacturing in the 80s and in fact most of the world had this cultural idea of Japan becoming the dominant global technology force. As a consequence the US government imposed a 100% tariff on Japanese electronics, accused the country of "currency manipulation" (sound familiar?). And on the topic of IP Japanese faced the very same copycat accusations that China does now.

Let's just take this fortune article from 1987 as an example:

http://archive.fortune.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive...

Try and replace every occurence of Japan with China and see how it sounds.

It even seeped into fiction. There's a reason neo-tokyo imagery is at the forefront of Gibson-era sci-fi.


The big difference is that while Japan was frequently accused of IP theft, the actual occurrences were few and far between as the result of individual corporate activity.

Chinese IP theft isn't just rampant--it's actively promoted and paid for by the Chinese government, which even goes so far as to identify targets for IP theft and provides governmental assistance in extracting stolen IP from the victim country.


>The big difference is that while Japan was frequently accused of IP theft, the actual occurrences were few and far between as the result of individual corporate activity.

The accusations against Japanese companies at the time were including that the Japanese government were assisting them, and that the IP theft was part of national competitiveness policy. (And of course in Japan - as in S. Korea - corporations and state go hand in hand, though not to the degree of China).

Not that the inverse was also not happening (then and now):

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2015/07/31/national/wikile...


Your own article contradicts you with respect to Japanese and IP theft. Its thesis is that they were just playing the game better:

''Are the Japanese picking our brains?'' a congressional staffer asks. ''Yes. They're doing it very well. They're doing it legally. The question is whether we have a two-way street.''

The Chinese accusations are that illegal methods are used. Which is a major difference.


>The Chinese accusations are that illegal methods are used. Which is a major difference.

It's really not until the accusations are actually proven to be true. Remember that Bloomberg story about Chinese spy chips in every device on the planet ? Whatever happened to that one? In the current dispute with Huawei, how many accusations are substantiated?

Do the Japanese simply get the benefit of the doubt because we're just taking it on faith that they never cooperated with their government in a country that is notoriously corporatist, but the Chinese we'll just designate as thieves?


It is notable that in prior episodes with Japan the accusations were never made.


The accusations were extremely common, in newspapers, pundits opinion pieces, politicians etc, in the era of Japan's rise (70s to 90s). From accusations of spying and government subsidies helping their corporations, to tarifs, threats, "taking our jobs", being unpatriotic to get Japanese cars, etc, down to diplomatic pressure (that succeeded) to enforce US-led changes to their currency, to make US exports more viable.


They did this decades ago, and without time for the US to react. Also the US shaped Japan’s government so it’s difficult to criticize them due to competition.


The US required Japan to back down from its ambitions during the 80s. Part of it was currency devaluation that debased Japanese industry and inflated the real estate bubble. Of course, Japan had to do it, because you know, they don't have an army. Things are different with China.


Are you sure? We've always been at war with Eastasia. Or maybe we've always been at war with Oceania.


it's both, you can tolerate a tiny infection, but when it starts to be able to wipe you, you take action




Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: