Would you accept that response as the reasoning of a judge after an incident?
I wouldn't. I'd consider it criminal negligence to get behind the wheel of a car at times when it's impossible to make a suitable effort to drive such equipment.
It's not acceptable to hop into a car drunk, either.
The effects aren't really that much different between the two, response-time wise.
The problem is, that like drunk driving, the person making the call doesn't always have the experience to know when they are impaired, or how close they are to falling asleep.
I've driven the family from Northern Califorina to Sourthern California quite a few times, many of them overnight. It took one instance of actually falling asleep at the wheel for a few seconds to realize "oh, that's the difference between tired and falling asleep at the wheel."
I definitely recognize it now and never let it happen now (stopping and sleeping, trading out for someone else to drive, etc), but the point is I didn't think I was close to that level previously. Experience is something that we can't expect all people to have and exhibit the wisdom of, and unfortunately some things learned through experience are much harder (or nearly impossible) to teach without doing, and for dangerous things that's a problem for normal people.
As a much much more extreme example, I've heard that's why Navy Seal training keeps candidates up and physically and mentally exhausted for days at a time. Partly to see who can handle the pressure, and partly so they have experienced that condition before and understand it in themselves and others.
The problem is, that like drunk driving, the person making the call doesn't always have the experience to know when they are impaired, or how close they are to falling asleep.
Then they can follow the same rule as for overtaking: if in doubt, don't. It's not complicated. There is no way you are tired enough to be actually falling asleep without realising you're far too tired to be driving safely. It's not as if it's a close thing where one minute you're alert and driving responsibly and the next minute you're out. Anyone who can't make that determination reliably is demonstrably unfit to be in charge of a vehicle and should hand in their licence.
Have you ever dozed off on the road? I ask because unless you've experienced it, it would probably catch you completely off guard as well. Sometimes the part of your brain that would normally make you aware that you're falling asleep is the first to go. I think this happens more while driving because you think you're concentrating on driving but really your brain is shutting off bit by bit until you're finally at a point where you're basically a mindless zombie. It's happened to me before and it absolutely caught me off guard.
The thing is, to be susceptible to that kind of effect, a normal adult -- meaning one without an underlying medical condition -- would already have to be very short of good quality sleep and/or doing foolish things like driving for several hours at night without taking a break. It is not normal to be susceptible to just dozing off at the wheel without realising like that. If you are in that position, you should be aware of it, and should not be driving; you have just explained exactly why.
The kinds of medical conditions that do make sudden dozing off normal for a few unfortunate people are grounds for refusing to issue a driving licence to those people in most places, for reasons that should hopefully be obvious.
These are pretty absolute terms you're talking in with little corresponding evidence.
Monotonous activities frequently make people drowsy. This is not some medical condition, it is a common occurrence. Driving is often an acutely monotonous activity.
I know a huge number of people that get drowsy while reading books. Do they all suffer from the same "condition"?
We weren't talking about merely being drowsy. We were talking about having a pattern of falling asleep at the wheel, and knowingly continuing to drive while unfit for that reason. It's right there in the top comment that started the thread.
That is not where the context of this thread is. My comment clearly changed it to how sometimes it can be hard to know, and how experiencing it once can be useful to knowing what that feeling it. You responded to it. The context at this point is not about repeating that, you're mixing your threads, and likely arguing against points people are not making but you think they are because of that mistake.
Even if that is the case, my point stands. It is not normal to go from being a little tired to being so tired that you can actually fall asleep at the wheel just like that. I've done my share of long drives, including overnights across most of my country on occasion. If you're going to do something like that, you need to plan the journey sensibly, take plenty of breaks, make sure you got extra rest before you leave. Don't they teach this sort of stuff in basic driver training where you are?
> It is not normal to go from being a little tired to being so tired that you can actually fall asleep at the wheel just like that.
The point is that it isn't "just like that", but not everyone has experience with passing out from being tired while trying to continue doing something they were actively trying trying to concentrate on.
> If you're going to do something like that, you need to plan the journey sensibly, take plenty of breaks, make sure you got extra rest before you leave. Don't they teach this sort of stuff in basic driver training where you are?
Obviously not well enough, or I had forgotten some of it in the almost decade between taking the classes and actually experiencing it for the first time. And to be clear, I thought I was being cautious, it was definitely not my first time making that trip, and I didn't think I was so tired I would lose consciousness, and yet one second I was fine, and the next second (to my consciousness) I noticed I was halfway across the center divider. I didn't feel any more tired than I had on a a prior trip, yet, the conclusion is obvious, that level of tiredness feeling might lead to that outcome, therefore it was no longer acceptable.
So, here's the thing, prior to that situation I thought I was being responsible, and had years of experience to go by that indicated I could drive in that state. All it takes is once occurrence to let you know that what you thought as fine was not.
What exactly was a I supposed to obviously know from that beforehand? It's nice if you've always been able to know the correct level to stop at, or perhaps you stop far earlier than strictly needed, which is fine. You would never know if you stopped with plenty of attentive time left you could drive, but better safe than sorry.
All I see this meaning is that different people have different thresholds for this, and all I was saying originally is that I wish there was a way for us to impart this experience better during driver training, so people knew what the warning signs are better, in case their internal calibration was too far on the dangerous side initially, like mine was.
> There is no way you are tired enough to be actually falling asleep without realising you're far too tired to be driving safely.
Except I was, and I did. And now I can recognize the signs that weren't obvious before, so I don't anymore. You're saying there's no way, and I'm giving you a concrete example of an instance.
> It's not as if it's a close thing where one minute you're alert and driving responsibly and the next minute you're out.
There's a huge range between "alert" and "asleep". I'm tired after a long day, yet I can drive responsibly. Even a the point where I could lay down and easily go to sleep if I chose to, I'm fine to drive for quite a while after that (preferred sleep time is not necessarily the same as responsible driving time, there are many factors that go into it).
> Anyone who can't make that determination reliably is demonstrably unfit to be in charge of a vehicle and should hand in their licence.
So, have you been in that situation? Or just always stopped before you got to that point? Or not even driven over a long enough period to be in that situation? You haven't even presented any anecdotal evidence, you've just made assertions that what I said I personally experienced can't be how I described it (and implied I was demonstrably unfit to drive at the point I said this happened to me).
I've been driving for decades, and I've had many of the problems other comments have mentioned that make life tough, and yet to my knowledge I have never fallen asleep at the wheel or caused any sort of accident. There certainly have been a few times when I was expecting to drive but clearly wasn't fit to and had to make other arrangements.
And, in the gentlest possible way, if you were unable to recognise that you were so tired that you were likely to fall asleep while driving and make another choice, you were demonstrably unfit to drive at that time. It might have been understandable, particularly if you were young and inexperienced, but you still shouldn't have driven at that time and your actions were still irresponsible and dangerous.
Anyway, I think I'm done with this discussion. There are several posters here who are literally arguing that it's OK to drive knowing that they are severely impaired and have a much greater risk than any normal person would of injuring or killing someone. I can't argue rationally against such an irresponsible and selfish position, and my blood pressure has probably gone through the roof reading all of these comments and thinking of all the people who would disagree with them but can't because they're dead.
> There certainly have been a few times when I was expecting to drive but clearly wasn't fit to and had to make other arrangements.
My example (and experience) wasn't about starting to drive. It was about being 4 hours into a 7-8 hour drive. The slow degradation of attention while sitting in a static position while watching static scenery go by for hours at a time.
> And, in the gentlest possible way, if you were unable to recognize that you were so tired that you were likely to fall asleep while driving and make another choice, you were demonstrably unfit to drive at that time.
Part of being unfit is sometimes not easily recognizing you're unfit. If you start in a perfectly fine shape, but degrade slowly over time, it can be hard to note the exact moment when things have gotten to a point where you should stop. And the whole point of my post was that recognizing this point, especially if it's over time and a slow degradation, can be hard if you've never experienced it before.
> I can't argue rationally against such an irresponsible and selfish position
Well, I don't think the people in this little corner of the discussion it are arguing that. People definitely shouldn't drive while impaired. I just think we should also consider, and see if there's a way to help, people that don't have enough experience to know when they're flirting with that state, for whatever reason it may be. Hopefully that at least some people here aren't arguing for allowing impaired people to drive is some consolation and reduces your stress at least a little. :/
It's not as cut and dry as drinking and driving. A lot of times people who fall asleep on the road feel completely fine, until the moment they start falling asleep, and at this point their brain could be too asleep to tell it's falling asleep. I've dozed off on the road before and I can tell you, it's like someone just pressed the power button on my brain.
Car fatigue is real. The only way I avoid it is to be constantly scanning by moving my eyes around - side mirror, rear mirror, speed gauge, back to the road. Delay(5s). Repeat. It can happen to the best of us and when you realise it’s safer to pull to the side of the road. Unlike a DUI this neither voluntary nor reckless unless you ignore the warning signs and keep on driving.
It is drilled into us that we should stop every 2 hours regardless of how we feel. You cannot trust yourself to judge as by definition your judgment is impaired when tired, it's best to just stop and grab a free tea/coffee if you find one of their setups or even just pull over to rest your eyes or walk around your car for a couple of minutes to reset.
We have similar public information campaigns in the UK as well: take a break at least every two hours and more frequently if you're driving under more draining conditions; if you're starting to feel tired then pull over as soon as possible, have a caffeinated drink and maybe take a short nap; and so on. At certain times of year, the big displays on major roads even display "don't drive tired" and "take a break" reminders.
> The only way I avoid it is to be constantly scanning by moving my eyes around - side mirror, rear mirror, speed gauge, back to the road. Delay(5s). Repeat.
I'd add an occasional glance at the horizon too , if you're on a long trip. You can make it a game if you're driving a new route (guess which mountain is closest to the road you're on) Frequently changing focal distance helps a lot to prevent eye fatigue.
Not defending the GP but there are plenty of occasions where it’s unavoidable for some people to drive tired. Like families with young children and where adults don’t have the luxury of working from home nor good public transport links. Are they supposed to book a day off every time their child doesn’t sleep?
But there are also measures one can take to mitigate tiredness while driving: winding the window down or turning the AC down, putting energising music on, stopping mid-journey and taking a break, etc.
There are also medical conditions one can have where they can fall asleep even when not tired. However I believe you’re denied a licence if you do suffer from any of them so this might well be a moot point.
Monotony can make you drowsy, regardless of how healthy you are or how much sleep you've had. And when this happens, it can catch you unawares even if you're looking for it.
That’s a truism that doesn’t add anything. You know when you’re tired, and when a comfy warm enclosure might make you fall asleep. In such situations driving like that is as bad as driving drunk.
IMO your statement is the truism that isn't adding anything. Obviously people that might fall asleep shouldn't drive. But this is a matter of degree. Everyone might fall asleep and it's a risk everyone will eventually take even in a small degree.
Some people are always somewhat tired (eg sleep apnea or CFS), some people aren't tired when they start driving but become impaired at some point. Some people might have an undiagnosed condition that contributes.
There's no reason to not celebrate a simple advancement that might save people from a disaster.
This is it. I don't understand why this isn't higher up in the discussion.
Do you check whether your brakes work every time before setting off? Do you check whether your wheels are attached properly every time before setting off? There are a million things that could break on your car. They're just very unlikely to happen.
Pilots/maintenance crew for planes checks that kind of stuff for virtually every flight. We accept this small risk with cars. In return we get an enormous increase in efficiency. If everyone had to do a 5 minute check on their car every time before setting off, then that would be a lot of productive time spent on it.
