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In the words of a trial lawyer friend of mine, “Nobody in the history of the world has said, ‘You know what? The judge was right; I was an asshole.’

Definitely some of those vibes there. I’ve generally been on team apple for this case, and as Gruber notes, they largely won the case. Dunking on their power to set other contractual fees seems to have come back to bite them. That said, as a user, I strongly prefer to use Apple’s in-app payments — I was just buying a hearthstone purchase from Blizzard; on my laptop it popped up options like “Credit Card or PayPal?” I was like “nah” and loaded it up on my iPad to pay with Apple Pay.

Do I hate PayPal? No. Do I appreciate a payment service that shows all my recurring payments in one place, lets me cancel them, and feels generally very safe? Yes. I’m happy to have Apple compete on fair playing field for payments.

Summary: Oops.



> That said, as a user, I strongly prefer to use Apple’s in-app payments

I'm sure both the app developer and Apple are happy to let you pay 30% extra for the convenience of Apple Pay vs PayPal.


Well in blizzards case, I pay the same - they pay the fee.


Apple Pay is 0.15% fee and have no bearing on this case. In-App Purchases are 30%.


Note that the 0.15% fee for Apple Pay is paid by the banks issuing the card, and I assume it sufficiently reduces chargebacks since the banks are happy to offer Apple Pay.


All fees get factored into the retail price, generally speaking. Bankrupt companies excluded.


That is not a proper accounting of this situation.

Suppose the chargebacks due to fraud/whatever without Apple Pay cost the issuing banks 0.20%.

Then the banks reduce their expenses by paying Apple 0.15%.

Maybe it helps reduce customer service calls and the associated expenses. Maybe Apple results in higher total spend. I’m sure the leaders at JPM, BoA, Wells Fargo, etc have done the calculations to figure out that it is better for them to pay Apple than to not.

And since it is not required for any bank to allow Apple Pay to work with their cards, it stands to reason that in a competitive market like credit cards, it doesn’t result in an increase in end user prices.


> a payment service that shows all my recurring payments in one place, lets me cancel them

PayPal does.

> and feels generally very safe

PayPal doesn't??


I've heard so many horror stories about people's PayPal accounts, it feels like the last thing from safe.

On the other hand, if you're using it exclusively for payments rather than receiving money maybe it's fine?

But there are so many stories where PayPal closed someone's account and didn't give them back their money, am I really supposed to trust them in the case of a dispute where I'm owed a refund?


I've never had to dispute anything yet through Apple Pay. Does anyone have any experience? Are their reps decent and have a fair process?


Apple Pay on Stripe?


I'm unable to find where Gruber says that Apple "largely won" (not that I would be surprised to see Gruber making such a claim). His latest headline literally begins with "Apple lost." Where are you seeing that?


From https://daringfireball.net/2025/04/gonzales_rogers_apple_app...

> Keep in mind this whole thing stems from an injunction from a lawsuit filed by Epic Games that Apple largely won. The result of that lawsuit was basically, “OK, Apple wins, Epic loses, but this whole thing where apps in the App Store aren’t allowed to inform users of offers available outside the App Store, or send them to such offers on the web (outside the app) via easily tappable links, is bullshit and needs to stop. If the App Store is not anticompetitive it should be able to compete with links to the web and offers from outside the App Store.

And there's a subsequent post elaborating on this point: https://daringfireball.net/linked/2025/05/01/apple-lost-but-...


I don't buy into the analogy. Cable providers can't prevent you from watching free OTA channels on your television, but Apple prevents Epic from publishing iOS apps outside of the App Store. Considering Fortnite was removed from the App Store specifically due to offering outside payment options, denying its return will likely lead straight back to court.


IANAL, but that's not true. Fortnite was removed due to breach of contract.


The breach being that they offered a payment method outside of Apple Pay. That's exactly what he said.


It's not exactly what he said. The fact the they agreed to a contract prohibiting them from using an outside payment method and then willfully violated that contract is a detail that courts may not be so willing to overlook.


Even though the court found that particular provision to be illegal?


Contract law allows you to sign away many rights you would otherwise retain. I'm not sure that a contract provision being found illegal under antitrust law has the effect of it being retroactively considered unconscionable or excuses agreeing to the contract in bad faith.


It's in the text of his blog entry. Right there. In black and white. Word for word.

Keep in mind this whole thing stems from an injunction from a lawsuit filed by Epic Games that Apple largely won. - emphasis his.

And he's right, Epic "largely lost" that case, Apple only needed to concede the minimal things they didn't win and it would have been an epic win (as opposed to an Epic win) for them. Sweeney didn't get much of what he wanted, Apple mostly got everything they wanted.


He has several blog entries, the latest of which says explicitly that Apple lost ("the ruling was clearly a significant and reputationally-damaging loss for Apple"), hence asking for guidance toward the entry that contained that text. I don't understand the reaction toward that.


They won on almost all counts; you can tell this by trying to download a Tim Sweeney backed App Store on your iPhone in the US.




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