Wow, that Penn and Teller thing is horrible. About 3:30 when they're reading from the AA book -- "I admit that I am powerless over alcohol" as Teller makes fun like it's the stupidest idea ever. A lot of the people you'll find in AA really do need to admit they're powerless over alcohol. That's no joke.
But Penn and Teller readily admit they've never had a drink in their lives (it was a choice we made, a path we never decided to go down, so screw you losers that aren't total teetotalling illusionists).
The comments here in general demonstrate a general lack of understanding of addiction. It's not a choice, it's a disease, and the prognosis is generally shitty. I'm not saying AA is the end all be all (it's not), but holy shit, don't be so dismissive of an organization that saves lives by trying to give people strategies they can use to avoid drinking. I'll put it this way -- if alcohol (or any recreational substance) is fucking up your life, I don't see any harm in seeking out a support group of people who have dealt with similar issues and have gone on to lead normal lives. There's a lot of suffering people out there that refuse to take that first step because they believe bullshit like it's something they can fix themselves with magic.
And for all the people bitching about how AA is religious -- it's not! The "higher power" thing is more of a philosophy than a religion. This philosophy essentially says alcoholism is a disease, individuals are generally powerless to control it (as evidenced by the lack of an addicts ability to control it in the past), and they will need the help of some kind of "higher power" to avoid drinking. What's the nature of this higher power? That's for you to decide. It could simply be AA as an organization, a higher power that will help with support to prevent you from drinking. I dunno, there's a few books about it, but my point is -- it's not religious!
>And for all the people bitching about how AA is religious -- it's not! The "higher power" thing is more of a philosophy than a religion.
Bull-fucking-shit.
I've read the AA "big book" (enough of it that I could stand). It is a religious book. The part about non-believers is especially offensive - to me. It quotes from the Bible, it explicitly refers to the Judeo-Christian God. Many court have ruled people can't be forced to attend AA meetings because it violates the first amendment's freedom of religion clause.[1] If it wasn't religious organization, then it wouldn't.
AA can actively harmful - to some people. This whole "go to AA if you have an addition as a first step for everyone" is complete and total nonsense.
If people seek AA, struggle with the concept of a higher power, you know GOD, they might think they can't get better. If you are religious, seek AA, if you are not, don't. I disagree completely that AA is a universal treatment. It is not.
As I said before - I know an addict, he avoids getting help because he believes that the 12 step programs are offensive. (I share the same opinion - however I acknowledge they work for some people and that's good - I just disagree they should be the "go to" programs for everyone) He knows AA doesn't work for him, but he doesn't know there are non-religious programs and people who have gotten better without religion.
Preaching AA as a first step or a cure all is harmful to these people.
Do I have personal experience with addition - absolutely. I was never an addict, but I grew up all my life with an addict parent.
United States courts have ruled that inmates, parolees, and probationers cannot be ordered to attend AA. Though AA itself was not deemed a religion, it was ruled that it contained enough religious components (variously described in Griffin v. Coughlin below as, inter alia, "religion", "religious activity", "religious exercise") to make coerced attendance at AA meetings a violation of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment of the constitution.[88][89] In September 2007, United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit stated that a parole office can be sued for ordering a parolee to attend AA.[90][91]
>Your friend avoids getting help because he's an addict, not because he's offended by the 12 step program.
Completely and totally incorrect. He has tried AA, and was completely disgusted with it. He just thinks if he tries to get professional help again, it will be like AA and he doesn't want that. Quitting on his own hasn't worked out yet, he's tried.
>You would suggest doing nothing in the absence of a perfect solution?
OF COURSE NOT! I never suggested it, I didn't even imply it. I said "Preaching AA as a first step or a cure all is harmful to these people." I didn't say it didn't help some people, of course it does. I am saying if you have an addiction people jump to "AA" like it is a cure all or the only route. They don't evaluate the patient to see what is right for them. Even doctors don't do this to a great degree. There are other non-region based programs out there, they need to be considered on equal footing as AA, introducing the wrong person to AA can turn them off of getting help at all. Right now it is "I have an addition" then the answer is "Oh well just go to AA."
>That is awfully convenient if you're a fan of getting high...
What are you talking about? I don't get high.
> Try going to an AA meeting and saying you're an atheist--you'll find plenty others present.
So some can get past some parts of AA, some also cannot. Big deal.
LOL such denial.
Your friend just likes to get wasted and doesn't want to really stop. He would just like the consequences to stop while still being able to get wasted at his own accord.
Being powerless over alcohol is similar to saying your powerless over a nuclear bomb going off next to you. You have the power not to pick up the first one. Once you start it sometimes can be really hard to stop, and admitting that is the key to not starting. And for most drunks theres no point in drinking one or two drinks anyway. the point is oblivion.
But Penn and Teller readily admit they've never had a drink in their lives (it was a choice we made, a path we never decided to go down, so screw you losers that aren't total teetotalling illusionists).
The comments here in general demonstrate a general lack of understanding of addiction. It's not a choice, it's a disease, and the prognosis is generally shitty. I'm not saying AA is the end all be all (it's not), but holy shit, don't be so dismissive of an organization that saves lives by trying to give people strategies they can use to avoid drinking. I'll put it this way -- if alcohol (or any recreational substance) is fucking up your life, I don't see any harm in seeking out a support group of people who have dealt with similar issues and have gone on to lead normal lives. There's a lot of suffering people out there that refuse to take that first step because they believe bullshit like it's something they can fix themselves with magic.
And for all the people bitching about how AA is religious -- it's not! The "higher power" thing is more of a philosophy than a religion. This philosophy essentially says alcoholism is a disease, individuals are generally powerless to control it (as evidenced by the lack of an addicts ability to control it in the past), and they will need the help of some kind of "higher power" to avoid drinking. What's the nature of this higher power? That's for you to decide. It could simply be AA as an organization, a higher power that will help with support to prevent you from drinking. I dunno, there's a few books about it, but my point is -- it's not religious!