In particular, if you want to understand why someone would opt for paying more daily rather than less monthly, the big non-obvious factors are a) landlords have a very particular set of requirements regarding social status to be allowed to rent in a building (gradually loosening) and b) a few institutions like key-money balloon the upfront payment required to move into an apartment.
When we moved to Tokyo, my wire to the new apartment's management company (introduction fee, key money, deposit, first month's rent, insurance, guarantor fee) was, well, call it 50% of a young salaryman's take home pay for a year.
Property market in Japan is strange but I still find it much better than where I live now (Singapore).
When I stayed in Tokyo all buildings I've looked at were owned by big corporations. The upside was that rent was quite reasonable. Also one can always make an offer. Those companies don't go for a bidding war. The property will go to the first person that makes an offer provided that both the person and the offer are 'acceptable', rather than the highest bidder.
The rental process can be quite complicated though. I can't even begin to imagine how to rent a flat directly without getting everything arranged through the company that hired you. If I tried to rent by myself I have a feeling that I would be refused even if I offered to pay the whole lease (1 year or 2 years) upfront...
And while rent itself is not bad there are some crazy cost to deal with. Moving from company A to company B and changing the name on the lease? That's monthly rent gone! And there's the "key money" (1 month rent as a fixed fee when signing the lease). Fortunately one can often find "no key money deals".
I will be moving back to Japan soon so fingers crossed. Hopefully I'll manage to work something out.
> The rental process can be quite complicated though. I can't even begin to imagine how to rent a flat directly without getting everything arranged through the company that hired you.
By finding a real estate agent that has experience with foreigners.
They will know which companies are happy renting to foreigners, and also guide you through the process.
And heck, if you're going to be paying agent fees (which in Tokyo, you probably are) you may as well get some value for the fees.
If anyone wants a recommendation for a real estate agent, email me at my HN username at gmail.
The rental prices in Singapore are very high. If I wanted to rent a studio flat close to where I work I would have to pay S$3500+ and it wouldn't be easy to find. To live alone it is very expensive; sharing is a bit better and that's what I opted for.
A lot of Tokyo apartments are small and well designed and the quality of materials is fantastic. They are also very well maintained. Apartments in older buildings still look great. And the prices are reasonable. Varying the size / distance to the centre / condition of the building gives you a wide spectrum. Something should fit your pocket.
In Singapore the options are much more limited. I'd rather take a well designed 20-30m^2 studio than overpay for 50m^2; for me that's a waste of space. I don't need a small and mostly useless condo gym; I'd rather pay for a proper gym membership. Swimming pool might seem nice initially but think about how much you pay for it in rent (whether you use it or not). Unfortunately all condos have "amenities". And that "added value" isn't free.
There's also a crazy "double agent" system in place in Singapore. When you see an ad online it is not uncommon that it has been placed by "agent" that has nothing to do with the landlord. They insert themselves between you and the landlord's agent. So you call them up and it turns out they might not even know on which floor the apartment is on! (happened to me more than once). Because the other agent didn't tell them... And as you might expect both agents expect to be paid. This is usually 1 month per year of lease, even on your re-contract. You're supposed to pay your agent off and the landlord is supposed to pay their agent off.
Another weird thing is that you'll never see the photos of the apartments online. Most of the time the photos are just generic filler. The agents post their own mugshots though (crazy, right?).
Finding a flat in Singapore wasn't a pleasant experience.
This is an example of how expensive it is to be poor. Leaving cheaply (by getting cheaper accomodation) costs money. And many people can't afford to earn enough to break out of it.
(BTW Germany has expensive costs with moving. 3 to 6 months rent up front is very common)
Yep, in Germany 3-6 months is normally a deposit (Kaution) that you get back when you move out (so unless it's your first place you can roll your previous apartment's deposit into the new one's).
It's not unusual to find apartments without a commission or with a commission of 1-2 months.
A bit sensationalist IMO. From my experiences costly Tokyo rentals are optional.
During college I lived in central Tokyo on a budget that was much less than what I had in the States (120,000 jpy) - working near full time mind you.
Started out by living in a few different netcafes for a month and moved into a humble flat with initial costs under 100,000 jpy.
Now with a non-Japanese wife and no guarantor, we pick places where these fees are non-existent and landlords or organizations are okay with foreigners working non-traditional jobs using guarantor companies (monthly guarantor fee of around 2600 jpy). More so than the deposits, it sucks I get discriminated against for my race.
> More so than the deposits, it sucks I get discriminated against for my race.
I used to consider Japan as a potential destination country. The xenophobia will come back to haunt them. The cost of integration is outweighed by the economical benefits of a bigger workforce pool.
You can argue that countries should aim for full employment, so any unemployment by definition means they're mishandling things. But certainly increased labour supply doesn't automatically increase unemployment rate in market economies - it often has the opposite effect. Otherwise, smaller countries would tend to have low unemployment and populous countries would have high unemployment!
Actually quite a few places allow you to get in without such deposits. I've lived here since my last two years of college - totaling 8 years now - and never had an issue getting in with almost zero down aside from rent and guarantor company fee. My rents have ranged from $350/month to now $1600/month.
On the private side:
コンフォリア
On the public support side (subsidized housing):
UR (Urban Renewal)
JKK Tokyo (東京都住宅供給公社)
The fact that it's an upfront payment makes it hard but I just looked at it as pre-payment of rent. 2 Year Contract Rent = X/26. Pay 2/26X to start Plus 1/26X a month for 24 months.
Not sure what a guarantor fee is but a guarantor is no different than a co-signer in America which lots of young people need. It's slightly different in Japan in that pretty much everyone needs it but as a foreigner with no Japanese credit history whatsoever it didn't seem unreasonable to be required to have a guarantor. Fortunately my company co-signed the first time and a friend's father the second.
Then, there's plenty of apartments with none of those fees. Here's several just around 1 station for as little as $500 a month
but a guarantor is no different than a co-signer in America which lots of young people need
Respectfully, they are quite different. A co-signer is generally used only if the first party can't pay rent. A guarantor is used regardless of ability to pay and is explicitly designed to make sure that only people with appropriate social status are allowed to live in the building.
Not sure what a guarantor fee
If you're unable to come up with a Japanese company to guarantee you because of social ties, you can pay a company to do so. (This is, ahem, often necessary but insufficient to pass the must-be-at-least-this-social-status-to-rent bar.)
It's basically a surety bond: they promise my landlord one month's rent if I skip out. This bond costs me precisely one month's rent and is nonrefundable, much like an insurance premium. (Warren Buffet just said "Eff me that's the most profitable insurance policy in history.")
An other difference is that they specifically ask for a Japanese guarantor. I had for guarantor a Frenchman who've been living in Japan for 10 years, spoke Japanese, had a full time job at a public research institute, but it was very hard to find an agency who accepted to sign a lease with him as a guarantor because he wasn't Japanese.
The argument with the agent was often the same:
- because if there's a problem, communication will be hard
- but he speaks Japanese! And me too, as you can see!
- yes, it would be fine for me, but the landlord wouldn't accept!
As far as I remember, the term "Net-cafe Refugee" was already common in early 2000s, but I feel that Japan hasn't done much to reduce the number of them (in a good way). And we were too busy paying attention to more sensational things.
As a Japanese citizen, I welcome these reports. It's repeatedly shown that we have no self-correction ability, and I think being exposed and embarrassed in front of the world is one of few effective ways to change this society. We need more of this.
Forgive me if I'm simply being ignorant in my questioning here.
As a foreigner with interest in your country but an obviously limited perspective, I have noticed what seems to be a growing trend there in willingness to publicly challenge traditions and institutions and to draw attention to societal problems. This strikes me as being very "unjapanese". While I can see evidence of it going back to the '50s, it seems to be an attitude that has become much more common in the last 10 years or so. Am I totally misunderstanding this, and if not, do you have a positive outlook on some large cultural shift fixing many of these problems in the near-future? "Revolution happens in the mind" and all...
As a side note, from the little bit that I've seen, the amount of attention that the hikikomori phenomenon has received seems to have resulted in some positive steps to dealing with mental health issues like that and it looks like Japan is ahead of other countries that have and don't admit to the same problem.
There were arguably more challenges to traditions and institutions in decades past than in today's Japan. Student anti-war riots in the late 60s, etc. Today there are limited protests, especially strong after Fukushima, but none as strong as what happened in 1969.
Hmm, a very good point and counterargument. I've come across this once or twice before but I realize I know frustratingly little about the student protests there in '69. Thanks @gen!
(Been to your blog before for motorcycle reasons. Big fan!)
I've stayed in one of these overnight Japanese net cafes. They're absolutely amazing, with TV's libraries, a collection of DVDs, games and magazines. You can pay to shower, theres even a kitchen with food.
That being said, It's a novelty and definitely something I wouldn't want to experience night after night.
Off Topic: When I was in Sapporo, I spent a lot of time in Internet Cafes. I LOVED them. Huge up-to-date library, fast internet connection, free lunch, shower, sofa... This place was in the center of the city. Hotels in the same area would have costed 3/4 times that.
The only downside is the smoke. Too many people were smoking and polluting the cafe. As a minor, I could not go to the non-smoking area.
Agreed. I stayed in various ones for, in total, a week some year(s) ago. I loved it, but I think doing it for an actual living situation it would get tiresome real fast.
I just spent the last couple of minutes watching those videos. That "hostess girls" really got me.
The US is by no means perfect, but to think that human beings could be stuck in such a situation (to literally be worked to death) seems obscene. Here comes my Ignorant American side talking, but to even imagine such lack of opportunity and freedom in a first world country makes no sense to me.
> to even imagine such lack of opportunity and freedom in a first world country makes no sense to me.
What about the lack of opportunity for black people in the US and the fact that most of the prison population is black?, both opportunity and freedom lacking here too. Just different contexts and cultures.
What lack of opportunity are you speaking of? I'm not trying to say there is/isn't. But I'm curious how you would phrase/state it?
I find it's often much easier to discuss something when it's phrased as a proposition, rather than a blanket assumption that we must either accept, or argue with the person stating it.
It is not a lack of opportunity, it is a lack of dual parent opportunities that can place the proper amount of time into their children to develop them for school and career opportunities.
Taking a step back from race, let us focus it on one parent families. While it is possible to successfully raise a child in a one-parent family it is a difficult variable; there is a reason why the news includes single parent as a hardship in their tales. Locating child-care, staying home with a kid who is sick and cannot attend day care, one income wages, and a host of other variables create issues for allocating the one-on-one time necessary to develop the ABC's, numbers, and mannerisms that a two-parent family is capable of; be they gay, straight, black, white, asiatic, hispanic.
The question is how can we, as a society, encourage two-parent families, so we can get people a good start to be successful?
On the website, there are societal factors within Japan that are creating suicidal individuals without any hope for the future:
* Salary careers are no longer as optimum as before, Mr. Tadayuki is taking the same action as those of second born individuals from centuries past, seeking opportunities in other lands. Staying in Japan only creates suicidal thoughts.
* Hostess girls fall into the same trap as strippers, there is so much up front monies to be made that pursuing a career seems dubious for those who are not able to see long term benefits or have requirements that necessitate large up-front monies (drug habits). Getting them off of these careers would require a government or privately run stripper wean off program.
I think maybe you're viewing hostesses from a decidedly western pov. I have lots of hostess friends or x-hostess friends. All but one of them saw it as a pleasant experience.
They talked a lot and got paid very very well. They didn't have to put out and some of them gained amazing social skills that have helped them in their current careers. All of them (except 1) go back from time to time for extra cash.
My point being its not seedy to Japanese culture where as to westerners it's often associated with strippers. It's not or at least a large percentage of it is not
Thanks for your insight Mr. GreggMan, I figured the hostess title meant that they were not doing seedy thing. I wanted to point out the addictive property of going to work for a high pay job that was only good for a period of time and having the ability to get away from that job.
I wondered about the seediness level and your comment helped explain it better.
Interesting. 230,000 seems a surprisingly average wage to be stuck in a net cafe. I think there may be other factors at play - perhaps the part time nature of his job prevents him from being accepted into apartments.
edit: Just my opinion, but I'd say ¥1,000,000 is ... overestimating it a fair bit. Assuming 70,000 rent - a little less than what I pay in a 1DK quite near Shinjuku/Shibuya - 2 months cleaning deposit, 1 month rent in advance, 1 month to the agent, 1 month guarantor, ~20,000 disaster insurance fees, ~5万 to get very basic furnishings (Nittori delivers!) - comes in under half that.
Key money seems to be less and less common. More often than not, it's only one month, or zero with a 2 month cleaning fee.
As the article says, when you're temping and have an irregular income, you need to pay more in guarantor fees, advance rent etc to make up for your perceived/actual lack of stability.
Also a close reading of the article shows the intro dude was getting over twice the income of his fellow cafe residents.
So if overtime goes away and they only need him 3 days/week instead of current 6 days/week, and maybe he loses his temp job entirely for a few months, or gets stuck at 1/2 average income instead of twice for awhile... he could be homeless and penniless on the street in just a couple months. So saving up a very large cushion sounds wise to me.
A long time ago I went into my first bachelor pad expecting to spend X in the first month and ended up spending 2X. Things add up!
Basically if you are a salaryman in some respected company (to which you are prepared to sell your soul for the rest of your life) getting an apartment, a bank account or really any service is trivial, since it is assumed that the company guarantees for you.
If you are NOT backed up by a major company you have more or less the status of a bum, and people will refuse altogheter of renting to you, at any condition, or ask for crazy guarantees.
I've read several articles about some Silicon Valley employees living in their cars. Especially if the company provides most everything else- food, showers, entertainment. Why spend huge amounts on apartment you just sleep in? This happened at MIT and Stanford too when I was there.
The "key money" is an archaic thing that really needs to be addressed. There's been a little bit of loosening up on it, but it is still quite obnoxious the amount you have to pay for the "privilege" of a lease.
Stereotypically this is a symptom of strong renters rights laws. Its a tradeoff.
I've rented in places where renters are treated little better than cattle, at least legally, and you show up with first and last in a cashiers check, they run a credit check while you wait (which I never had a problem with although I assume people must occasionally fail?), sign a one year lease, they hand you the keys, whole process is done in like 10 minutes. Then again if you don't pay up the judge will issue an eviction before the month is out, seen those papers posted on doors. And that's precisely why they'll rent on the spot to almost anyone with a pulse no hassle.
Then again I've heard of places where women with children can't be legally evicted because the judges just won't approve, any code violation or maint issue means rent goes into escrow not to the owner, endless .gov permits and hassle. Thats nice that .gov has your back when there's a problem, but when there isn't a problem, you end up with key fees and guarantors and endless paperwork and social standing stuff.
Given that experience, I would assume Japan is some kind of renters paradise when/if a problem occurs, whereas at a net cafe in Japan if a problem occurs either you walk out or are physically tossed out, although I didn't read anything in the article on that topic (Or I missed it if it was there)
These sound like aPodments in Seattle, though even smaller: accommodations for people who either can't afford or don't want to live in "traditional" units.
If you're providing a cubicle with bed and available showers, laundry service and suchlike, the added cost of providing electricity and Internet is small whereas the added value is large, so it strikes me as efficient.
It is dishonarable in Japan to live in your parents' home until you find something stable ? Or to live in a flatshare ?
The average salary for those Coffee Shop dwellers is higher than a starting salary for many jobs in Southern Europe.
Even if the cost of living is inferior to Tokyo, it's still not enough to rent an apartment by yourself for most people, so many 20something stay at their parents' home until they saved enough to move out, or found a better job, of just find a flatshare.
I know it's cultural, and not very flattering for those still living off their parents in their mid-late twenties, but given the alternative...
The worst part I think is that, even though they don't have family in the city, work is hard to find, and the rent is very expensive, they still won't leave Tokio.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=551794
In particular, if you want to understand why someone would opt for paying more daily rather than less monthly, the big non-obvious factors are a) landlords have a very particular set of requirements regarding social status to be allowed to rent in a building (gradually loosening) and b) a few institutions like key-money balloon the upfront payment required to move into an apartment.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=552175
When we moved to Tokyo, my wire to the new apartment's management company (introduction fee, key money, deposit, first month's rent, insurance, guarantor fee) was, well, call it 50% of a young salaryman's take home pay for a year.