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    Confucius says you should do what someone with an earlier birth date or higher social status
That's categorically false.

In one example in an old confucian book I read - if you are the ruler of the country, and your parents committed a murder, you should first send an arrest order against your parents - even if they protest otherwise, and then abdicate and help your parents escape the law.

This example directly contradicts your generalised assertion[1].

In confucianism - you must try to fulfil your roles at all times. Yes you must respect your elders, but in no way you should obey their commands without considering your own position - and even if you wish to, do not obey them blindly to the point of betraying the responsibilities of your other roles. Don't murder your brother just because your parents told you to do so.

The "in confucianism you must obey your elders at all times" is a convenient myth perpetrated by various governments and parents throughout history.

[1] According to confucianism, the parent always has higher social status than the child, and, the parent could also be a visiting ruler of a much larger country.



Your argument may be true but it's semantics. The poster's point was that Confucianism has a hierarchical/obedience type of effect on society, promoting a mindset that fosters an acceptance of totalitarian rule. That's hard to argue against.

The major Confucian-derived modern states are China, Japan, North Korea, South Korea, arguably Singapore, Taiwan and Vietnam.

Personally, my visit to the headquarters of one of the major Korean major mobile device manufacturer felt like a hideous preview of a dystopian future where the workers are forced in to utter obedience: entering through airport levels of security on a daily basis, living in numbered cells provided by the company, taking company-provided transport from their assigned residence to work. Even smoking was only permitted between certain regulated minutes, at certain areas. Everyone wore a personalized tracking device used in order to move about the campus. It was hard to describe as anything but oppressive, yet the conditions for those workers are reportedly sought after!

(Edit in reply to below: Yes, I'm definitely in the Taoist camp.)


Ah, what you see is one reason why the old Taoists railed against Confucianism so much in their philosophy - Confucianism tells people what they should or should not do, and in doing so, defeats itself in the kind of society it wants to promote.

Confucianism claims the values of humanity are filial piety, kindness, benevolence, justice, loyalty. The following passage from Tao Te Ching challenges Confucianism directly.

    The great Tao fades away
    There is benevolence and justice
    Intelligence comes forth
    There is great deception

    The six relations are not harmonious
    There is filial piety and kind affection
    The country is in confused chaos
    There are loyal ministers
    
    Chapter 18, Tao Te Ching
The Taoists say, by the time you're writing a rulebook about how to have humanity, all the values you're "treasuring" have already been lost. They complain as you do the lack of spontaneity in a society following confucian order.

The Sinic civilisation has been following a cycle swinging the pendulum between Taoism "spontaneity" and Confucian "filial piety and benevolence" for the past two thousand years, so I wouldn't worry about it.

   The Tao is constant in non-action
   Yet there is nothing it does not do

   Chpater 37, Tao Te Ching


Interesting...so why is Taoism more prevalent in Sino countries and Confucianism elsewhere?

Tao seems a bit like buddhism when it comes to the ephemeral, I like it.


Not sure at all what you mean by 'Sino countries'.

AFAIK in Japan the predominant pre-Buddhist shinto beliefs paralleled Taoism in their nature-focus.

Korea and Vietnam had Taoism, at least in Vietnam it is still sort of alive, though Buddhism far dominates. In Korea Buddhism and Christianity dominate. Taiwan has numerous Taoist shrines, though Buddhism dominates it is not to the same extent. Mainland China has effectively killed off Taoism almost entirely.


IMHO, what Confucius meant was that parental authority should be respected on condition that elders behaved like role models. In his ideal, the kings, officials and subordinates should all follow their ethics, like atoms in regular expression, which of course was overambitious like other thoughts of idealism in the history and met its contemporary Waterloo.


In the book I read Confucius said that a woman who goes fishing with seven guys comes back with red snapper.




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